How about documented ones? Most of them wait for a hopeless long time and some of the documented ones could be eventually rejected for their PR applications, not as far as citizenship yet!

I don't know.I heard on many occasions Mexicans and Ecuadorians speaking spanish,and not realiziing that they are around people that understand them,and they are heard saying vile things and racist things about americans of african descent.I don't want new racist bastards here.If it were not for blacks and whites that knew right from wrong alot of those illegals would not have rights.If you are racist keep the hell out.The United States of America has enough home grown evil devil racist.

They should pay a reasonable fine.Reasonable back taxes,and at least $20 for every member for everytime they used the emergency rooms at hospitals .Oh I have more,I just have more important things to do.

My parents legally immigrated to the US with their parents when they were young children. All immigrants were required to take classes to learn English so that they could become United States citizens. Further, citizenship required moderate fluency in English. My father often told me that he loved his adopted country and had no intention of returning to his country of origin in Eastern Europe. That said, young children who were brought here should not be punished for their parents' behavior. Illegal immigration is complicated because non-skilled or semi-skilled illegals drive down the wages of US citizens. They also tend to drain social services, like schools and hospitals. Conversely, highly-skilled and educated immigrants tend to benefit our economy. Then there is the problem with lost revenue when money that is made in the US is sent back to the country of origin, rather than adding to the US economy. So, should illegal immigrants be given a pathway to US citizenship? Yes, is some cases (those who are skilled and educated) and no in other cases (those who are unskilled and uneducated). Yes, we are a country of immigrants, especially during the 19th and early 20th centuries when we had a huge country to fill up and an abundance of jobs and resources. But that is no longer the case. Perhaps, we need to have a moratorium on immigration which would let us "catch our breath" and let us make calm, rational decisions.

Aw give them a break.Most of them are very good people.Keep the racist out.Give them all polygraphs an if the test shows that they are racist put them in detention until they are deported.If they past the test the first time give them a temporary go, but test every six months for 3yrs.If they fail to show for test for any reason except their own death..deport them.

I think that is fair,and those test should apply to those from Europe and South Africa and Australia,and other areas.

Absolutely, Jabbar. Any and all tests should apply to ALL immigrants.

J.Lyn, I do think that the Obama plan is fair and level-headed. But I am concerned about what the House will do to it. And it should be tweeked over time to fix problems as they arise - and they will.

Sure let them be legalized but with catch up restrictions so they do not receive special treatment over those who follow our rules. English is a prerequisite for citizenship.

I am a new citizen of the United States. I came here legally, applied for a green card and when that expired I applied for citizenship. I work here, I pay taxes, I speak English and I am educated. These were all requirements of of my entry into the US. Why should those who came into this country illegally be given citizenship? I did it the right way. You know what the difference is? I am not Hispanic, I do not drive down minimum wage, I do not work illegally and I do not speak Spanish. Those who do are now becoming the majority in this country and Americans need to understand the only agenda on the governments mind is votes. That is why they cater to the Hispanic community by offering them money for their children's education, money for food, housing etc. I was offered none of these perks, why? Because I am the minority now and I offer no benefit to the voting population. Do not kid yourselves. The gov't is out for what is best for themselves period. Why else would the Spanish language come up as a prompt when you dial any gov't establishment? Really? They are required to learn English? Then English should be the only prompt. When I moved here 14 years ago, I seriously thought Spanish was your second language. That's how prevelant it is here and how catered to they are. Americans need to ask themselves, "why is that?"

They should let everyone in FOR A FEE........

They already let them in for a vote and they get everything paid for. The gov't recognizes that these illegal immigrants do not have money, that is why they come here, for work. Otherwise, they would be paying their way and not relying on Gov't aid.

this will be another cuban invasion,mexico and poland will release their scum from prison on the condition they immigrate to the u.s.a.all we'll get is criminals and we will allow them

this will be another cuban invasion,mexico and poland will release their scum from prison on the condition they immigrate to the u.s.a.all we'll get is criminals and we will allow them

U.S. is woefully overpopulated from an environmental carrying capacity standpoint; we need no more people. We're in the midst of the greatest, most sustained wave of immigration in history, driving over 90% of population growth on track to reach 1,000,000,000 this century. This is a disaster. Where are more people needed? Wanted? Vacuous sentimental shibboleths about the U.S. being an "immigrant nation?" Nonsense. Every nation is/was an "immigration nation." Does that fact justify national suicide? From less compelling labor market standpoint, there is no shortage of willing workers in this "new normal" economy with chronic structural unemployment; only the desire of employers wishing to obtain the cheapest possible labor and corrupt/compliant politicians placating their agenda in slavish deference at the expense of the rest of society that must subsidize this defacto reprise of slavery with the true cost of cheap labor, i.e., health care (emergency room services and now Obama care), education, infrastructure and, as above, the always overlooked environmental costs resulting from population growth. Mass/illegal immigration is mortgaging our future with environmental degradation, wage and living standard depression, balkanization (Google "Aztlan movement"), and domestic terrorism. Proposals to increase education quotas are equally patently disingenuous attempts to grab cheap labor. Try selling that to our college grads burdened with war debts, living in parents' basement.

Go to www.numbersusa.com and www.balance.org

SI is correct ! Our wonderful polititions are out for their votes. Why do you think ou health care premiums exploded! Their emergency room visits.Hence Obama Care to give them free health care. Once we let illegals in their will be 20 million more. Their giving the Country away to keep their jobs , and none of them want to give up their 1-2% status which our wonderful press never talks about. The other bad people our the 1-2%. Also they aren't going to pay taxes, the take cash jobs!!

No. If we are a country of laws, then illegal immigrants must leave the country after
paying fines for breaking the law. There may be extenuating circumstances, then the illegals must pay fines and must never get citizenship.

NumbersUSA in particular has been especially effective in thwarting the agenda of cheap labor/open borders interests. This however is the fight of our lives. Please act now by going to their website and enlisting in their action network of concerned citizens that channels citizen concern to lawmakers. This is what the enemy's Luis Gutierrez had to say about NumbersUSA on the floor of the House recently. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ya-obhOUdv4

Shouldn't our polititions be more concerned with the killing of American's in America! Their are more killings here than the wars were fighting! Oh thats right bring more violence in, keep the people scared so they need Gov't!

Thank you, boxcar, unfortunately, it's not once they let the illegals in. They already do, no matter what you hear. The gov't controls the media and exactly what the American people know and don't know. All of it is controlled by the gov't.

Wonder if we would need Obamazilla healthcare, Obamazilla food stamps, free/subsized housing and education that results in their still speaking whatever language they started their lives with, if we didn't have to pay and pay for llegals. Stop calling them undocumented. They have broken the law..... My god, we take little six year olds out of school for playing improperly, Send these deadbeats back to their own countries to fix them...We are paying for that too

Anyone who thinks America's new immigrants are just like very other wave need to be educated on the rise of Aztlan. ANy country that is blind to immigration in excess of assimilation is proceeding at down a path of national suicide, especially when deomgraphics are in the favor of the enemy. A roper poll show the vast majority of Mexican rightyfully believe the U.S, southwest is "occupied terrirtory" stolen from them that rightfully belings to Mexcio. Oly a fool would be indifferent to these facts. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajkAP_M4ZAM

Anyone who thinks America's new immigrants are just like very other wave need to be educated on the rise of Aztlan. Any country that remains blind to immigration in excess of assimilation is proceeding down a path towards national suicide, especially when demographics are in the favor of a colonizing enemy. A Roper poll show the vast majority of Mexicans believe the U.S, southwest is "occupied territory" stolen from them that rightfully belongs Mexico. Only a fool would be blind to the "Reconquista" movement (Re-conquest) known as "Aztlan" derived from the restoration of the mythical Mayan mestizo nation, who indeed do have demographics on their side. "Press One for English Please!" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajkAP_M4ZAM

NO for citizenship. Maybe a pathway to permanent residence, but never the right to vote.

what we have doesnt work. in the end its all about the votes and money. Economically it makes so much cents. Morally it is not fair to those who have followed the rules and acted legally. It is a hot potato and the politicians will certainly mess it up. look how they have addressed the fiscal issues on the federal and state level.

My son made a very good point last night when he brought up the question," What is the difference of all the immigrants that came over to the U.S.in the 20's, 30's and before then, most of whom were our ancestors? Did the gov hunt them down and send them back? Did they not get jobs, send their kids to school, learn the language and become part of our community? Did they take away jobs, did they not bring skills that were adventageous in helping our ecconomy? And what about the indians that were here first? Why were they treated with such disrespect? " We say that illegals are taking our jobs away, but what is the percentage of people in the U.S. that are on wellfare that have no intensions of working, yet they have opportunities to do so. Are they not taking money out of our pockets and the gov ? Granted many peolple have lost their jobs and need our help, but if you think about it some of these illegals don't care what job they get so long as it helps to feed their families. Land of oppportunity, land of plenty, better than where they came from. So what is the solution?

Allowing illegals to remain in this country is a slap in the face to those who immigrated here legally. BTW I don't see why we have to press anything for Spanish, as this is an English-speaking country. Some Americans that visit Paris call the French rude, but that is only because these same stupid Americans go there and expect them to speak our language......!

BTW here is the real reason that the Libs want to keep the illegals here.......this country is only at the very beginning of the massive slew of aging Baby Boomers that will need to be cared for (since many did not care for themselves very well), and there is not nearly enough cheap labor to deal with them here! I sincerely hope that they don't allow themselves to be taken advantage of and that they form a caregiver's union (Libs LOOOOOVE unions, right?) and demand good salaries, benefits, raises and vacations......or the BB's should wipe their OWN wrinkled rear ends.

Interesting that so many here have opinions contrary to those of the Democratic party, yet Democrats keep getting elected at all levels of government locally, state-wide, and national.

Vicky, liberals -human or subhuman? Immigrants- human or subhuman? African Americans- human or subhuman? I eagerly await your answer.

the Obama administration has been putting t.v. ads in Mexico, telling Mexicans how to apply for U.S. foodstamps and welfare.

They are now including this information in 'new immigrant' packets.

This is the deal. Democrats know that Mexicans are ideologically more aligned with conservatism than they are with liberalism. Mexicans believe in working hard for what they get. The majority of them are also Catholic.

The Democrats are making a huge effort in making these people dependent on GOVERNMENT assistance. Once they do that, they are more likely to vote 'D'.

Victoria Smith: What is the difference you ask? If you can't figure that out I am afraid you are totally helpless. And as for the NUMBER of immigrants, as I pointed out above (if you had taken the time to read the facts I recited), this is without doubt the greatest, most sustained wave ever, a hug monolithic wave that has a hostile agenda. That, for starters, is one difference. By the way, in the past, even with a mostly European source, and greater diversity of sending nations, we had "time-outs" or respites that facilitated assimilation, That clearly has not been the case this time around in addition to the huge numbers sharing a hostile agenda to this their host country. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajkAP_M4ZAM

Vicky, there is no set national language in America. Everyone assumes it's English, but, there isn't one. As far as the issue at hand, I don't agree with it. They should be documented to become a legal citizen.

Illegal immigrants should not be able to become citizens, but rather become legal with a green card so they are on the tax rolls. They would still be required to show employment, speak english, and whatever else is required by immigration. The children of illegals who were born here should be able to be on the path to citizenship. Most likely these children went to US schools and know english and are on the path to being an educated member of our society. Unfortunately, I don't have confidence in the US government to execute such a plan. Why aren't special health clinics set up for people without health insurance such as illegals so that emergency room staff have somewhere to send people that don't have health insurance. Possibly manned by physician assistants or volunteer doctors. Like doctors without boarders in third world countries. Why should we continue to pay high emergency room costs. Yes, it is a tier medical system but that is the system we have for people WITH health insurance.

Yes. Lets reward all law breakers and give them Carte Blanche and punish those that followed the rules and immigrated legally like chumps. No different than our elected officials who make & break the rules while us peons must abide by the rules. Really, I am supposed to feel sorry for these people? Politicians do not care about these people's well being, they are only looking at them as possible votes. Why not just open all the borders and let everyone that wants to come in and use the system for all it can give these people. Americans love to pay for illegals from all over the world so they can get a free ride, while the American foots the bill and gets no help or free ride themselves for things such as college tuition, housing, WIC, free cell phones, etc, etc. This country is backwards, and if you do not think in the liberal mindset they look at you as rascists, intolerant and a mean, insensitive person. Why have laws if all do not follow them. No absolutes, just do whatever makes you feel good even if it offends. Sick of this liberal mindset, if you want to feel sorry for them, give them your money. There are too many Americans in this country that are struggling to survive, and immigrants who want to become citizens legally and embrace, acclimate and love this country first, not use it and complain how terrible the US is and want us to acknowledge their country first.

This I do not understand . Why so much hated and fear when it comes to this issue? Are we not all humans sharing the same planet? Where is the compassion for creatures of your own species? If you are not a full blood Native American, you are only several generations away from being from a family of immigrants. The fact that there is a illegality issue just shows how desparately people of our species are in need. Is it not time to put your fellow humans needs before your fear, hate and greed?

I find it strange when traveling to Mexico everyone speaks English, yet none of the Hispanics wants to speak it here.

J.Lyn: Please spare us the empty "Native American" justification for national suicide. What relevance does the original migration of humanoids tens of thousand of years ago have on the formulation of contemporary public policy in the national interest on which the very suvival of this nation depends? Every nation on Earth was, at some point, an "immigration nation" (excpet maybe Kenya where the Rift Valley is located whence our species originated) if you want to really extend your argument to logically ridiculous lengths. So what? Recent archeological evidence point to similar human migration from Europe (originating Iberian peninsula) along an ice bridge to the eastern seaboard during the last Ice Age as well....but so what??? The Earth is overpopulated with 7,000,000,000,000 people now. If we encourage mass migration here of even a fraction of that impoverished total we are toast as a nation. Is that what you are really advocating?????

Should illegals get AMNESTY---the DREAM ACT ??? no...They broke our law if we reward them ? more will come for the next AMNESTY...Obama wants AMNESTY up front with not border security, no way...
Remember Ronald Reagan AMNESTY ? AMNESTY first border security second, did it happen ?? no..Border is only 40 % secured. 21,000 border agents can only secured 40 % of the border..
This time a border wall first---50,000 U.S. troops first---i like to to see the 14 Amendment re-worded so illegal kids born in the U.S. can't become citizens any more. If all that was done ??? i would support one last AMNESTY, but no more. Democrats---Mr. Obama do not want any of that. So no to AMNESTY.

Our government can't support the freeloaders living off the dole now and you think adding 11,000,000 more is alright?! Please!

There are people who have been waiting in line for years to come here legally and they are being bypassed for those who mooch off of us. This is NOT a well thought out plan by no means, but it figures the liberals will do what they want in order to increase the number of Democrat voters.

You mean Illegal immigrants, don't you? No I do not. Let them be sent back to what ever country they come from and then enter our country legally. This b.s. is nothing more than pandering for votes.

Close down the borders FIRST. Then discuss what to do with illegals. It's not just Mexican people coming in. Shut it down FIRST. And please let's stop saying this is Obamas plan. It is not. First person I heard talking seriously about a plan was Marco Rubio. Strengthen bordersnFIRST and then create a very tough path for those people who broke the law . Lets not let Obama take credit when he hasn't done much of anything.

The welfare rolls tell us a story. Unemployment has never been higher for legal immigrants and citizens. Yet illegal aliens working in the cash economy (the Gray Market -- no taxes paid) are willing to work for less. Unfortunately, employers love it. Lower wages and they do not have to pay their share of Social Security, Medicare, Unemployment Insurance, Workman's Compensation They rig their books by recoding lower sales and they lower their income tax liability.

Meanwhile we keep extending welfare benefits instead of stopping them earlier and forcing people to actually find and take the jobs the illegal aliens are taking. It is fraud on the part of the government, the welfare beneficiaries as well as the illegal aliens -- most of whom wire money back to the home country.

Instead of moving to there might be work as they used to do in the Depression of the 1930s, our people stay in place on urban "plantations" happy to receive money from the State. The politicians love it. Votes flow to their party

The people have become OPM -- pronounced "Opium. It stands for Other People's Money as if there wee such a thing.

We need to put our legal residents back to work before one illegal is employed.

just think if illegals was sent back to where they come there be more jobs for the true Americans !! i am not just talking about spanish people.

Some people see this as a 'human rights' issue. Sorry, but Mexico is no Darfur. Mexico has vast natural resources; farming, OIL, tourism, etc.

All nations have immigration laws and none of them are as generous as the United States of America.

This is simply a pandering for future voters by promising them free stuff that is not budgeted nor can we afford. The Democrats don't care about that... keep the borders open and keep printing money.

This is a question with no really simple answer. I believe that illegals should not be allowed to become citizens "just because they are already here" but if we deport them, what happens to the children of illegals who were born here? The practice of automatic citizenship upon being born in USA MUST be discontinued if the parents are not here legally. Illegal does not have a double meaning so there should be no question of its interpretation. Go home, either willingly or deported and then get in line behind all those who do it the legal way no matter where you come from.

Why does this have to be so difficult? They came here illegally, they're not "undocumented" they're illegal. They broke the law, they're criminals. Why would anyone reward criminals? Ah of course, for votes. Their Kids, well ya that sucks that your parents are criminals ,but guess what life sucks, you can go back with them and apply like everyone else. No anchors! We have a enough legal citizen, we dont need any more sucking up what we dont have. You have all these people who legally try for years to come with no luck and now they just want to open the doors. Follow the votes people, right from the the democratic playbook, make dependant on you, give em freebies and they will vote for you everytime. Who wants to work when you can get all for free.

The only reason for the immense surge of illegal immigration was due to the fact that much of "their" land was stolen from them. They were taught by their schoolteachers to come to this country and take all of it over (by reproduction) to make up for their previous loss.

They were brainwashed, and it's not fair to them or us. All of the benefits they receive are just an added bonus. They would have come regardless. The good news (or bad depending how you look at it) is that they are becoming corrupted by our immoral society. Now, more and more immigrants would rather live the American life. Go to college and make good money. Only have 1 or 2 kids because children cost too much disposable income for the materialistic lifestyle.

IMO, too many hardened criminals rule our land and they like it that way. Why do cold-blooded killers get deported only to return again and again? There is something seriously wrong here, and no WAR on immigration nor amnesty of illegal citizens are going to stop it. Only a complete white-washing of our entire government.

I read these comments just about every week, and it's so obvious what our problem as a whole is. We do nothing but argue one side over another like there are 2 beasts fighting in the ring and one must be victorious. This vs That. If you are not with me, then you are with my enemy.

Please stop, and wake up. We are all connected. We are all on the same side, humanity.

Reagan, yes Reagan...had an amnesty program in the 80's that was very successful. It didn't take into account the ongoing border problems. So, 3 million grew to 11 million. If we can secure the borders to stop the problem for expanding then developing a path to legal work and citizenship makes sense. Today's policy does not work, rips families apart and sometimes sends the best and brightest overseas to start hi tech businesses. Plus, anything Vicky is for or against, the opposite position will be the most humane.

So, Vicky how long do you want to lock up a young undocumented girl who gets an abortion? Murder, remember. Do you deport or send to prison? I suppose the burning at the stake would take care of everything in your 14th century world wouldn't it?

NO< NO< NO.....Most of us have parents, grandparents or great-grandparents that did things the right way. In fact my grandparents came here in the very early 1900's, 1st my Grandpa, once he had employment and an apartment, he sent for his wife and my uncle. They all filed for and succeeded in getting citizenship. They learned English and only spoke their language at home or at a relatives house, and that was only when they couldn.t find the right words in English. They did not go into stores or other public places speaking foreign tongue. these illegals, mostly from Mexico or south of the border came here breaking our laws, too many of them are criminals in other ways, driving illegally, while drunk, stealing (just read the news) violent crimes, too many in our prisons, etc. Until we have zero unemployment, sent the 12 million or so back to where they came. If they want to come back they apply like all the rest of our ancestors did, once we formed the United States and established laws. they are draining us dry and have no rights.

NO< NO< NO.....Most of us have parents, grandparents or great-grandparents that did things the right way. In fact my grandparents came here in the very early 1900's, 1st my Grandpa, once he had employment and an apartment, he sent for his wife and my uncle. They all filed for and succeeded in getting citizenship. They learned English and only spoke their language at home or at a relatives house, and that was only when they couldn.t find the right words in English. They did not go into stores or other public places speaking foreign tongue. these illegals, mostly from Mexico or south of the border came here breaking our laws, too many of them are criminals in other ways, driving illegally, while drunk, stealing (just read the news) violent crimes, too many in our prisons, etc. Until we have zero unemployment, sent the 12 million or so back to where they came. If they want to come back they apply like all the rest of our ancestors did, once we formed the United States and established laws. they are draining us dry and have no rights.

1. We have a path to citizenship, it's called legal immigration.
2. Walking across the border or overstaying your visa is not the same as entering the country legally through Ellis Island.
3. Illegal immigration poisons the competitive nature of the job market, lowering wages, especially for those in entry level jobs.
4. It can take 5 to 15 years on average to achieve the status of a legal immigrant. Extending citizenship to those who chose not to wait and illegally cross our border makes a mockery of our system and penalizes those who follow the law.

-Part 1-

Illegal immigrant status sure touches a raw nerve with the public. Racism, fear to one's status, threatened economic wellbeing, are just as important in the American psyche as it has been throughout our history in the form of American nativism. The Ku Klux Klan was born of it. White supremacists emerged from it. Anti-Catholic groups, Anti-Semitic groups, anti-Native American groups, anti- Asian groups have a storied place in American history. And now today--the conservative fringe right, a core of the Republican party, and many non-anybody Americans.

Some Facts for the Ill -informed and mis-informed about modern day immigrants.

1. Illegal immigrants from no -Mexican countries rival in numbers illegals from Mexico. This includes many, many, Central and South Americans, Carribbean Islanders, Polish, Irish, Rumanian, Russian, and Asian, particularly Chinese.

2. Some come here illegally to escape persecution. Many come for economic gain to live a better and decent life. Some might say it is a God given human right to better themselves.

3. Those who come for economic gain would not do so if citizens of the United States, many who represent corporate conglomerates, did not willingly encourage illegal immigrants for their own economic gains/greed.

4. Without a constant flow of immigrants, some illegal, who fill some of the most important professions, we would be verging on an undevelopment.

-to be continued-

--Part 2--

5. Immigrants, some illegal, fill positions such as physicians, engineers, scientists, cyber technology of all types, etc. Without them, the U.S. would not be able to fill many of these crucial jobs to our economy and security.

6. Many of these illegal immigrants, poor and woefully uneducated, produce children who become economic engines for growth and the professions in the next or following generations.

7. Any fluency of the language or test of American history or civics, if given to long established American citizens would find many of them failing. Those illegals who pass such tests would be better prepared to be enlightened American citizens and contribute than many native born citizens.

8. For many Americans whose parents or grandparents came when there were open immigration quotes, I wonder how many of them would have come illegally anyway if there were restrictions. I also wonder how many present day nativist's relatives did in fact enter this country under nefarious means? How many of you are absolutely certain your relatives were legal immigrants. Did you check the veracity and legitimacy of their, ahem, papers? How absolutely certain can you be?

Bottom line: immigrants, even illegals, on balance, always have and still are a very definite plus for this country countering the ignorance of some of those already here, even native Americans and most of our founding fathers who were also immigrants too.

RB: And just like in the eighties,it was an open initation for even more illegal to come in and wait for the next amnesty,It didn't work then and it won't work now.

Keep the illegals, kick Dennis Wayne the Hell out!!! Along with the rest of the despicable and vindictive conservative scum of his ilk!!! Hey Dennis, say we "DEPORT THEM ALL" as you say, who's going to cover the lost revenue, in the wake of those deportations??? Who's going to fill ALL the positions that would then be empty??? You really should THINK before you open your disgusting and hateful mouth and spew out such obscenities. We need some type of immigration reform that will see the illegals become tax paying, and productive members of society, rather than just "DEPORT THEM ALL", like some idiots are suggesting. After all, we're ALL on borrowed land, already as it is. What makes you think this is yours to start calling shots, in the first place???????

--Part --3

This one very important point occurred to me just after I submitted my part 2 post.

This country, like most, must have quotes on the number of immigrants in order to better manage the sustainable population of its country. It is very, very, very important for you to realize that ESTABLISHMENT OF QUOTOS FOR IMMIGRANTS FROM INDIVIDUAL COUNTRIES IS A POLITICAL PROCESS MANIPULATED FOR POLITICAL REASONS, NOT ALL BASED ON WHAT IS IN THE BEST INTERESTS OF THE UNITED STATES.

Those who come here illegally unknowingly may be doing so in some cases because the quota of their nationality is unfair. One legitimate way to lessen if not eliminated illegal Mexican immigration is to greatly raise the quota on legal immigration from Mexico.

I am not necessarily advocating this but just pointing out that, maybe because of the demand for immigration from Mexico is so great, maybe the U.S. government should revisit the present quota numbers for Mexico. The legality of immigration results from positions available under the quota for one's nationality set by political means, some arbitrarily, some based on prejudice, etc.

Many Jews were denied refuge during WWII because of quota limitations due to anti-Semitism raging in the U.S. No doubt FDR condemned many to death for fear of American reaction endangering support of the war effort.

The sanctimoniousness of many screaming the loudest against illegal immigrants is disgusting & palpable.

Of course, we're racist... Please, there are laws and people who are not citizen and here illegally are breaking those laws... end of argument. The problem has grown because it wasnt taken care of in the 80's.

There are many illegal here that would rather not become citizens, since obama has too many freebies and they'd rather remain non tax paying citizens as they are. Is there something wrong with the legal citizens who pay taxes and create wealth? Oh yeah, those are called evil capitalists these days.

The same people saying at least something is now being done were complaining when the previous President tried taking matters into his own hands via executive order. As for the issue in question, if we as a nation are to allow immigrants to bypass the rule of law... then eventually we will be surrounded by people who think they can do whatever they want despite the rules in place. As a legal immigrant, I am tired of having to pay for the wishes of others (who also don't budget for those wishes).... and I am tired of some people getting a free pass when others worked very hard and jumped through many hoops in order to gain the right to be in this country and be contributing members of society.

So, why are we trying to change the rule of law? What does illegal mean? The millions of illegal immigrants now in the U.S. have broken the law and some of whom have already sponged upon the taxpayers of America with all the freebies they receive as rewards for being here illegally?

Americans will be competing with the once "undocumented" for spots in colleges and for jobs (not farm/ag jobs, but manufacturing, service, and other jobs that are left due to the erosion of middle class jobs during the last 10 years).

Without the rule of law, anarchy will exist, for it brings forth a breakdown in society.

The Republican party lost the presidential election and now believe the Hispanic vote is cruicial to their party's future (so the push is to change party platform to accomodate). The last time the Republican party "caved" to deal with the illegal immigrant issue (1986), how many of those immigrants became a voter (and I'd be interested in knowing what % votes Democrat).

Politicians have NO scruples. Politician's only concern is that through appeasing so many illegal immigrants, the Hispanic population will love them and reward them with their votes.

Do those who agree so passionately with such action not realize that all who have been given amnesty (which is what is being proposed, no matter how politically correct it is worded), should be able to sponsor their relatives to come and join them in the U.S.?

This legal immigrant is mortified that people will be rewarded for their bad behavior (and will cheapen the legal immigrant effort to become a citizen and also will allow those who have not assimilated to the American process will try to change America to reflect where they come from instead of where they have moved to.... and by proxy, ruin the legal immigrant effort by their sheer numbers, and indifference to the legal process that the country they invaded put into place).

THE PROBLEM IS WE HAVE NO IDEA OF HOW MANY "FOREIGN NATIONALS" OUR ILLEGALLY IN OUR COUNTRY.
SUPPORTERS OF "AMNESTY," DISPLAY INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE SUCCESS STORIES, BUT WHAT PERCENTAGE OF TOTAL ILLEGALS DOES THIS REPRESENT? ALSO, IF THERE WAS A "PATHWAY TO CITIZENSHIP," HOW WOULD IT BE ENFORCED?
THE MAJOR PROBLEM IS THAT WE HAVE AN ACCELERATING GROWTH OF ONE RACE AND CULTURE, HISPANIC. DOES THIS MEAN THAT IN THE FUTURE OUR "OFFICIAL LANGUAGE" WILL BE SPANISH?
MANAGED IMMIGRATION, MONITORS AND CONTROLS THE "MIX" OF PERSONS ENTERING OUR SOVEREIGN REPUBLIC. THIS IS WHERE OUR NATION IS HEADING; TOWARDS A COMPLETE CHANGE OF CULTURE, AND ULTIMATELY, GOVERNMENT.
WHAT WE TRULY NEED, IS A NATIONAL ID CARD.

Does anyone here know the burden that is put on the american tax payer for the undocumented citizens(illegal alien is the proper term by the way). the key word being illegal. First off how many are in prison, second how many use the medical system without ever paying. I am all for making them pay all the back taxes that they should owe, and after interest that's going to be quite a lot. After all the legal citizens would have to pay that and promptly. This is a tough topic because people try to pray on human sympathy. Facts are facts though. But remember how much they want to be here when you see all their native flags brandished on everything.

Patricia, my family knows all about Ellis Island. Our families too have documents still on file. All my kids know what their grand parents and great grand parents went through to come to this country. They are well versed on this subject thank you very much. Never assume!

Mr. Schwartz, Thank you for your thoughtful comments. Greed, fear, anger and hatred get us no where near resolving the problem of people crossing borders to establish a better life, however they do such. Whether to survive themselves or keep their families from starving. So many people commenting in this board cannot see the forest for the trees and are clearly viewing the world through fearful, bigoted eyes. I am also sure that many, if not all, would in fact do something illegal if their backs, or their families backs were against a wall. Sanctimonious is the word. And...I can promise you, hypocritical if need be. I am so grateful not to have to live in their skins. No need respond to my last comment. I will not be returning. You folks embarrass me as a American, and disgust me as fellow humans.

I said the program in the 80's skipped the step about preventing more from coming in. I think that's why they want to secure the borders as part of this path to legality. The fact remains that they are here and we should allow them to be a productive part of society.

Hey, Steiner, your argument is well thought out, lucid, and intelligent on many levels. However, you don't speak for ANYONE but yourself. DEFINITELY not me. So, don't put words in my mouth. I have a sick 4 year old that I need to take care of, or else I'd take EVERY ONE of your (thousand) points (of light???) and throw them out your sheltered, hypocritical, and whitewashed window.

Yeah, cuz' Steiner's the only one who works and pays taxes!?!?!? Don't flatter yourself.

Steiner Anderson

You are an interesting person, Steiner. You are obviously intelligent & knowledgeable.
But I believed you mentioned you are an immigrant; you are so emotional about this topic that you make unwarranted assumptions and statements consistently, at least toward my posts. I can only guestimate that your personal experiences as an immigrant have tainted your positions and perceptions.

Nevertheless I will respond toward some of your incorrect assertions regarding my posts.

1. You wrote that I played the racist card without knowing my adversaries. Wrong.
I played no racist card as I explained many reasons for people's extreme statements about illegal immigrants. My source besides analyzing many people nationally, are the words used and remarks made by more than a few posters here.

2. You use a common ploy in challenging me to come up with stats and sources for some of my assertions. This is not an academic setting where defending my assertions are the norm. As a professor emeritus and academic all my professional life in the behavioral and political sciences, my assertions are supported by learning, scientific sources, study, and experience.

3. Substantial # illegals come from Mexico, you say. True but substantial numbers come from Poland, Ireland, China, etc too.

4. I lump illegal & legal immigrants--yes I do that because many of far out critics, whom I call nativists tend to be anti all immigrants.

-to be continued in part 2-

Part 2 for Steiner

5. BTW, Mexico has an illegal immigrant problem too. Thousands of Central Amercan & South American illegals cross into southernMexico not only as a way station to enter the U.S. but also to settle in Mexico where life is better than at home.

6. You falsely implied that I justified breaking the law and support open immigration policy--no quotas. In no way did I advocate these in my comments. This is an example of how your emotional state on this issue leads you to misunderstand the clear words I wrote. I talked about those things in explaining history & illuminating the issue but never advocated them. Big difference.

7. Another wild assertion on your part paraphrasing what you wrote: Politicians' only concern is appeasing hispanics for their votes. It definitely is a major concern of many. But it also is definitely NOT THEIR ONLY CONCERNS. In retrospect this smacks of hyperbole by you, but I suspect it is an example of emotional clouding of your thoughts on illegal immigrants.

8. You wrote that without the rule of law anarchy exists. True, but as one who has taught constitutional law, laws are broken, stretched, manipulated, and ignored every day by not only lawmakers, but by most of the general public. Breaking the law brings about a certain irreverence of the law and a resulting kind of anarchy. This is a statement of fact, so don't respond by writing I am advocating breaking the law.

Free education K thru 12, free medical, free food (stamps), free rent (subsidy), no driver's license, no car insurance, no State/Fed taxes when paid cash by employer, higher crime rates in areas inhabited by illegals, broke the law entering country illegally -- so why am I paying for education, why am I paying for medical, why am I paying for food, why am I paying my housing, why do i have a driver's license and car insurance? You broke the law...get out.

Professor Schwartz, I was not aware that we were dealing in sourced specifics from the get go, all I was doing was responding quickly to a substantial breakdown from your learned background (while watching the Super Bowl). You did not have my complete attention. As I am but a legal immigrant who served in the US Marine Corps after only receiving a diploma from my High School, I will adjust accordingly in my future correspondence with you on this “Patch” comment section to be more... in keeping to your regular reading material.

Your assumption is incorrect, I am not so emotional about this topic that I am making (in your estimation) “unwarranted” assumptions and statements consistently. I was merely doing quick responses to what was written by others (who are being emotional… as one tends to get on an Internet comment section). I will be sure to address each comment and issue on their merits.

Please, do allow me the courtesy of speaking in detail because judging my accuracy on a subject so…. Subjective would be premature on your part.

<Continued>

Your second sentence you provided a quick overview from your perspective just what you think contributes to the issue regarding the American Public (and your followup comments which showed which side of the argument you are on) while still trying to cast yourself as the impartial knowledgeable observer is what makes me think you are playing the Race card (as I believe those are your perceptions that are clearly not tackled at face value when a light is shining on them). To be sure, I am not saying anything judging you when making such a statement (your comments speak for themselves). It is very clear you’re surrounded by Academia (and like-minded circles) while thinking that you are impartial. I suspect Milt Rosenberg would be certainly interested in hearing your observations since you have bandied about your CV as your intellectual sword (I am also quite sure that he would also call you out on the using the posts of anonymous internet writers as some of the basis for your learned opinion). You have put yourself in the drivers seat for a specific position as you have judged others on what they have written.

<Continued>

Thank you Mr. Andersen. Now I know you better too! Did you serve in the Marine Corps after you received citizenship or was your citizenship accelerated because of your service in the Marine Corps?

I have a certain fondness of the Marine Corps and other services because one of my academic specialties has been national security affairs, and for a while in my former life, I worked with the Department of Defense living on strategic military bases all over the world.

I certainly know what writing hurriedly can do to carelessness and sometimes I find myself prey to this too. I have read research papers presented at various professional meetings that addressed the interesting problem of the shortened explication of cyber writing affecting accuracy, misunderstanding, and an informality that contributes to both. That has certainly been my experience also. It takes a rare person indeed that can impart significant ideas in the few words almost required by the informality of cyber writing. I, as and example of a typical academic, am a person of many words; some would say too many in cyberland. But, alas, that is the nature of this beast. As a result I shy away from writing on twitter. I am very uncomfortable with 45 words or less.

I apologize for jumping the gun about your emotionalism. Hope your team won the Super Bowl. Please don't be so formal addressing me as Professor. Not even professor emeritus. This can bring about some crazy responses from some.

“A common ploy?”, bub…. I don’t know you from Adam (you could be a member of the Dixie Chicks or Paul Ryan for all I know). I would also ask them to back themselves up on a website of minimal interaction or page views if I knew the comments didn't jive with the facts as I knew them. But you are using that learned “learning, scientific sources, and experience” as your “word” and when you are asked to “back it up”, all of that learning falls on its face as we do not read your mind or know from where you source your information. The facts in # 1 (regarding where immigrants come from by country) is on multiple government databases and can be accessed. If you make the assertion, back it up when challenged. Otherwise, why get on this website if you yourself won’t make the effort to convince your detractors / ideological rivals of the veracity of your claims? I challenged you because I have the data (from non partisan sources and data that has not been filtered yet to fit the ideology of the interpreter).

,Continued>

Steiner, you're simply no match. I won't waste my time and/or energy on you for one more second. Besides, pretentious, psuedo intellects, like yourself, who obviously have all the answers, can't be told anything. You know it all, already!?!?!? And as far as giving you respect and spelling your name correctly??? What, like the way you've shown everyone else respect on this thread??? Besides, I couldn't give a rats ass how your name is spelt. What's more, I don't remember THREATENING you, at all??? I don't threaten people over a computer, or otherwise. I'm a 40 year old man. I left such things back in elementary school.

And, what, you think you're the only one who knows how to fight, tough guy marine??? From my experiences, the ones who DON'T know how to fight, are the ones who boast about it all over the Internet. I think they're called keyboard assassins??? BTW, my info's public, too, chump. But, wait, who's threatening who??? Somehow we seemed to have gotten off topic. But, that's about par for you conservatives, who provide NO answers/solutions. Just sit atop their SHELTERED copper thrones and bitch, cry, moan, and talk about how tough they are, when confronted with intelligent debate. Ain't that right, marine??? Semper Fi, blah, blah, blah.......... And lastly, then I'm gone from it, I've wasted far too much time on you, as it is, I don't need to hide behind anyone, Vic'. Definitely not my kiddo'. I merely said my daughter is sick, and that's why I don't have time to "CONVERSE" with you. But, then again, you're not capable of conversing, anyways, huh??? I mean, you've insulted, threatened, and put words in the mouths of how many people, now??? Lets see, are WE all wrong??? Or just you???

Whoa, you've been insulting folks for quite awhile, now on this thread, huh SteinAr, or Bill, David......whatever. Don't have anyone saying, "Come to bed, Dear", huh??? Yeah, somehow that doesn't surprise me, I, on the other hand, DO have a life and have to go, now. You'll have to forgive me for not sticking around to read your next attack. Besides, I can just imagine what it's gonna' look like. C'est la vie.

You are equating the immigrants from one country (one large piece of the pie) with the collective number of immigrants from other country’s as if that is equally a problem. One set from one country substantially crosses the border. The ones from China, Europe and any non South/Central American country overstay their visas (so both issues are different in their means, but overall are treated the same by our government… they do not enforce Immigration Policy ALREADY in place.

Lumping legal and illegal immigrants together is YOUR cross to bear (don’t use others to make your case to be intellectually dishonest). Nativists, as you call them…. are many that are mainstream legal immigrants and American Citizens who only want the following: Secure borders, no amnesty, a guest worker program, and enforcement of our present immigration laws (punishing the service and manufacturing business’ who take advantage of both sides of the political argument by taking advantage of the chaos that is our immigration enforcement and making it easy for identity theft and the use of illegal immigrants to fill jobs that used to be done by highly skilled tradesmen and by the youth of this country).

<Continued>

Most of us are not William Gheen and his ilk. Your comment that American Citizens and Legal Immigrants are anti-immigrant (just because we believe in enforcement of our immigration laws tells me you have an agenda). You are not trying to inform your ideological rivals, you are using your knowledge of the issues as you perceive them to be a tool to hammer others into your way of thinking. Some left leaning academics are normally blinded by their own tunnel vision, and in this case…. I would indicate as much of your presentation in this comment section today.

<Continued>

Regarding #5. What does Mexico do to Illegal Immigrants when caught? What are THEIR laws (and by the way, I can cite them if needed). There is a reason why Central and South Americans come here (and some of that activity is as mules for the drug trade). THAT in of itself is reason to secure the borders and our ports. The wanting of a better life in America is because life IS better in the US. To be poor in America is to win the lottery in many parts of the world. How do I know this? I’ve interacted with the poor of this world. I’ve been to seriously poor regions of the US. How many in this world even have running water, let alone mostly clean running water (and sewer systems)?

<Continued>

When you include your opinion and judgment in portions of your posts, it sometimes is unclear where your historical overview begins and your opinion ends. My emotional state had nothing to do with what I wrote. You ended your comments with: “The sanctimoniousness of many screaming the loudest against illegal immigrants is disgusting & palpable.”

You lose the high road when you do as such (while interspersed with “explaining history and illuminating the issue”).

<Continued>

Sir, what is a politician? How do you define them? Some are concerned about the human aspect (to be sure), however, many are not concerned with anything but power or campaigning, fundraising, and making sure their constituents issues are dealt with (including future voters). The only substantially growing population in the US is what? That is not a wild assumption.
I stated:”Politicians have NO scruples. Politician's only concern is that through appeasing so many illegal immigrants, the Hispanic population will love them and reward them with their votes.” At the end of the day, that is exactly what Politicians do. I have seen it time and time again (the main reason why some Republicans are even changing their minds are not due to convictions, but due to losing an election and seeing the polling numbers). Conviction has no place in Congress, compromise is the only thing that moves congress (and usually, the truth and conviction is lost in the process).

<Continued>

Regarding the rule of law, you’ve been part of the process for so long… that you’ve been jaded to just accept the norm that some laws are meant to be broken and others are meant to be enforced (it is one of the main problems with our Justice system… and why certain portions of our population are disproportionately represented in our jails across the country… both Federal and State).
Some of us are amongst those who believe enforcement of the law should be equally met out (and if there are laws meant to be stretched or broken, they should be rewritten). The problem is: Academia, the Lawmakers/ Lawyers that result from their teaching, and the Politicians (that skew what could be sensible language into a legalese mumbo jumbo that needs the Supreme Court to “interpret” what product those institutions are spewing (using as a guide, the documents the framers created to ensure it was clear “intent” as best as the language could be written). Much like the mortgage chaos that resulted in securities instruments that not even the heads of Morgan Stanley and Citicorp could clearly explain to a Congressional committee (let alone a layman)…

<Continued>

.........the laws and specifically the “crap” being spewed onto the United States for it to function by Lawyers/Lawmakers/Politicians is ruining this country from within).
Complex issues should be treated with the complexity they deserve, but should be done in such a way as to be explainable to the average High School Graduate (this should be the low end of the bar to ensure we can manage such laws/regulations/etc.).

I'm done for now. I am hopeful you take what I am saying to heart in the context given that this is occuring on a news website. No ill will was or is intended. But please do not treat others as simpletons while taking on the role of historical observer from a learned background (or judge them). As you lose the opportunity to either learn or to teach (you are then talking to a wall).

<Continued>

In this case, I have not enjoyed the honor of a classical education... so I call 'em as I see 'em instead. Your goal should be as William F Buckley's, to learn from one's adversaries while respecting they are in their position of life due to their substantial efforts to get where they are. I am not perfect, and I'll accept informtation properly sourced or presented.

I most defnitely am trying to learn more on the subject, as I am starting an Immigration Website for both sides to speak on (and I still have much to learn). I especially am reading up extensively on Immigration Law (implication and real life result). I am a High School Grad who went to the School of Hard Knocks (the US Marine Corps) and who lived within that immigration system for many years. Emotion went out a long time ago (instead, I try to get past the emotional left as they brow beat others as if they are inhuman monsters because their opinion differs from their thought process).

Sincerely,

S t e i n a r
A n d e r s e n

Word.

recommended viewing for anyone trying to decide about immigration issues: El Norte, a movie made in 1983 but still relevant. The Wikipedia entry for the movie says "In 1995, the film was selected for preservation in the United States National Film Registry by the Library of Congress as being "culturally, historically, or aesthetically significant".

Please note: It just seems like common sense to most people that if you make it easier to become legal, that will attract others as well. It is naive to think otherwise.

These undocumented people started their lives out in this country illegally. Anyone who is a citizen who does something illegal has to pay for it. Why not these undocumented folks? And yes, if they are to become citizens the right way (or any way) they should be required to speak English. All undocumented people (no matter the country they are from, should be sent back to where they came from and, if they still want to become citizens, made to do it the right way. We are already giving them drivers licenses. What's next?

It is unfortunate this poll is worded in the manner it is with "deported" as the only alternative to amnesty and rewarding criminals/invaders. Another alternative which advocated by those with in-depth knowledge of this issue is attrition through enforcement in which eligibility to work in the U.S., i.e., through e-Verify, is enacted with serious intent (i.e., not in the on-and-off again, half-hearted manner at present) and those found to be ineligible can simply return to their own countries the same way they came here and at their own expense. End of discussion! Most, especially those from Mexico and other Latin American countries, make frequent and routine trips back and forth all the time anyway.

I suggest that The Federal Government reduce total welfare support which is paid to the States by the amounts disbursed in cash and kind to illegal aliens.

Let the voters and state legislators decide to tax their own citizens for that support.

I once had an employee 23 years old with 3 small children quit on me cause he said, "I don't need to work, my wife just got a job making 20K per year. We're going to apply for housing assistance." Two weeks later he came back and asked for his job back cause they had been denied the assistance cause his wife made over 19k!! He asked me, "how are people supposed to live making 19k?" I told him, "that's cause you're supposed to work!!!, that assistance is for people who truly need it". Him of course has multiple arrest for marijuana possession, and is still without work. People like him is what enabling illegal migrates to find jobs.

I used to manage a restaurant in Milwaukee's south side, one of my biggest operating cost were applications. People would come in with no intentions to get a job just so they could show their case workers that they were "trying" to get a job so their benefits would be cut off. Those who were willing to work didn't wanna work more than 20 hours or their benefits would be cut off. Again, make these scums of life work in the field in the dead of summer, make them work at a hotel as a maid or as roofers in Texas, and we'll see a lot less illegal migrants. But we all know these scums would rather sit their ass at home, get stones and wait for their checks than work for an honest pay.

And, don't give that BS about illegals driving down wages, we as customers set prices for goods and services based on what we're willing to pay for a particular good or services.

It's funny house people complain about illegal breaking laws, yet we all have at one point or another have driven drunk, that's a law a lot of people are willing to look the other side for but is responsible for more Americans deaths and economic hardship when we calculate, insurance cost, medical cost, legal cost and not p mention the cost of a life lost.

Obama didn't come up with this path to citizenship plan, McCain and the late Kennedy did, which Bush really wanted to pass while in office, the Republican need the Latino vote more than the Dems, so people need to get off O's back. I fully support protection out borders and deporting convicted felons, but a guest work program is need to fill jobs unwanted by the scums of life that rather live off our hard work than work themselves.

So Ed, I guess the logical conclusion is that the federal government we can all agree is pretty adept at screwing things up, including immigration and that the solution is not to make matters worse with a perennial underclass of defacto slave laborers but to address the problem in a holistic manner. The fact is mass/illegal immigration is a cheap labor Ponzi/pyramid scheme being paid for/subsidized by the rest of society that has to pay the true cost of "cheap labor" the benefit of which is accruing only to those exploiting immigrants.......and vote harvesting Dems (as well as cheap labor Republicans) whose only interest is short term. Heaven help us if the American people can not see through this scam and get it right, i.e., REDUCED (if not eliminated) immigration, not MORE of the same like Obama wants.

In order to get a guest worker program Ed, one has to implement rules / laws / regulations that will be agreed to by all parties. If you want to deal with the labor market as indicated, the country needs to address the issues for people who are already here (such as education), the drug problem, and entitlements that encourage the type of behavior you are complaining about. Bringing more bodies in to do the work will not resolve the "rabble" you are choosing to discard in order to get hard working folks from other countries to fill positions (they will only grow in number). And then they will want every aspect to be taken care of (and the left leaning humanists will seek to bail them out despite their tendencies to be their own worst enemy). The Politicians you speak of aren't coming up with solutions, they are bandaiding the problem and we are getting stuck with the bill.

I encourage everyone to stop this looming Obama train wreck, a.k.a., "Comprehensive Immigration Reform," and support NumbersUSA (www.NumbersUSA.com), widely acknowledged as the most effective organization fighting for reasonable and numerically sustainable immigration levels. They maintain an activist network in which one registers and uses Numbers' resources to communicate with Congress on the issue and advance common sense vis-a-vis immigration legislation. This looming travesty being the mother of all immigration disasters if enacted.

This clip of Luis Gutierrez calling out NumbersUSA speaks for itself as a testament to their effectiveness: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ya-obhOUdv4

Steinar Andersen: Kudos on your perceptive insight into the immigration disaster. In the context of labor markets, I would add that there is no shortage of willing workers, only the absence of a living wage which has been depressed by decades---without respites as in the past for assimilation--of mass/illegal immigration sanctioned by our nitwits/whores in Washington in slavish deference to cheap labor and every other selfish special interest at the expense of the rest of society that has been forced to subsidize this reprise of slavery in addition to suffering wage stagnation, if not decline. And yet we hear time and time again from our geniuses in Washington (as well as in this forum) how immigrants will save our economy!!! I'll retire to Bedlam if the majority of AMerica is so stupid as to end up buying into that load of crap.

What a joke! They are already here !!! Well People break the laws all the time they steal cars , rob , rape. Its already happening and lots do it so lets figure out how to get a few extra votes and maybe we can make that ok and legal as well!

We already have rules and guide lines Lets follow them and enforce the laws and rules that are on the books. You want a path to citizenship Serve in the military for 3 years and your in! The politicians want to buy more votes on your backs! You want to document these illegals ok fine , No rights to VOTE and no social programs until you go to the back of the line and follow the people that did it the right way ! NO exceptions! PERIOD!

END OF CONVERSATION!

PAuul: I'll go along with every thing you advocate but the military service part. I dn't think any paid vocation should exonerate anyone who came here in violation of the law, including military service. There are a lot of jobs more dangerous, including King Crab fishing in the Bering Sea after all. And I don;t think we really want ZETA cartel members corrupting our military like they have in Mexico, land of corruption, incompetence, religious superstition, ignorance.....(the last two redundant).

Hey Smukski,give the eleven million citizenship now and then tell me how you'll deal with their thirty million relatives.

RB: Can you share some of the stuff you are smoking?

Steinar Andersen: Quite frankly, very disappointed in your last post all your other insightful comments notwithstanding. We need no more people in this country, and guest worker programs, as in Europe, as you are well aware have proven and should know more than most, have proven to be disastrous. Here in the U.S., there is no shortage of willing workers, only the well documented shortage of a living wage for which compensation must be made (as in Europe) by the rest of society as a subsidy to those profiting off cheap labor, this in the form of health care, education, infrastructure and the always externalized environmental costs resulting from population growth, which, in the case of the U.S., is massive, having put us on a demographic trajectory towards a billion plus this century, This is nothing less than national suicide to have mortgaged our future thus with environmental degradation, wage and living standard depression, balkanization, and increasingly domestic terrorism. A roper poll shows the majority of Mexicans believe most of the U.S. southwest is "occupied territory" that rightfully belongs to them (and, demographics ARE on their side), while exploding Muslim and Asian immigration fan the flames of racial and cultural divide, especially in the case of the former, as in Europe, vis-a-vis Islamic Shari'ah law as the flash point.

Who pays for all illegal support (food stamps, medical, education). I mean, who pays for it? Where is the money coming from?? How much money is it costing me?? How much does Illinois pay to allow Illinois to be a safe-haven for illegals?

The answer is plenty. Alas, the devil is in the details, and many services in the state budget are not, for obvious reasons, able to be discerned based on immigration status, but taking education as the poster child for state largess one can run the numbers. Primary education of course is financed to a large extent through local property taxes, one of the largest, if not the single largest, components of your local property tax bill, and to that add the state contribution. Then there is health care, often emergency room services that those employing immigrants rely upon to keep their slaves healthy at our expense for which we of course pay one way or another. Then there is an entire litany of freebies we throw at illegal, despite their illegal status, including submarket rate mortgages to purchase homes (Illinois Housing Devlopment Authority, "IHDA") admitted to me they do NOT check immigrant status if giving away sub market rates loans for which even you and I can not qualify.

And of course most illegals earn their income as "cash" so even if they are bringing in a lot of money, to the state they are penniless with no paper trail to document their income. Here in Lake County the illegal pregnant women get free pre-nantal care, nutirition counseling, dedicated OB-gyne care, hospital delivery, psych counsling if requested, and a nurse friend of mine says over 90% are illegal from Mexico and central American. ANd of course babies born here are automatic U.S. citizens even if parents are illegal. Also, in-state tuition, now driver licenses for illegals, sanctuary city policies in Chicago, non-cooperation with federal ICE including the "Safe Communities Act" conceived to just remove the most dangerous illegals from our streets that Quinn found objectionable.....which raises the specter of the illegal alien population in our federal penal system and the cost for that estimated at one third to one half of all inmates.....and on top of it, the Dem controlled Illinois legislature and Governor Quinn send out welcoming signals to illegals that once they make it here to Illinois they are safe given our policies that coddle them (sanctuary, driver licenses, in-state tuition, etc.).

It is no coincincdence that the states in the most dire financial situations also have the largest illegal alien populations. Illinois is the absolute worst in the country, behind even California. You can go to www.NumbersUSA,com for information or the Center for Immigration Studies, www.CIS.org

My biggest tax liabilities in recent years have become Illinois state income tax (up 67% last year alone with no improvement in the budget crisis and a recent downgrade by credit rating agencies of the state's bond rating) and local property taxes;thus the ultimate unfunded federal mandate that commands us to PAY FOR MASS/ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION as the federal government abdicates its responsibility to control our borders. This is outrageous and every American, especially in most impacted states like Illinois, should be livid, especially with Obama as he seeks to EXPAND immigration with his deceivingly named "Comprehensive Immigration Reform" that will reward illegals criminal invaders, expand legal immigration beyond its record historic level, and increase worker programs like H1-B and other work based visas so that our own chronically unemployed and our own college grads graduating with war debts and livings in their parents' basements will have to compete with an even larger pool of foreign labor.

Dave Bell: Are you willing to compromise on any aspect of what is being discussed by you? Or are you an all or nothing kind of person? I ask, because we are talking about policy and laws/regs/enforcement...... (and when discussing large issues, both sides have a give and take). What are you willing to compromise on to get most of what you want? What do you want to accomplish? NumbersUSA, fair, alpac, and other organizations tend to be..... unbending in their platform and provide the other side enough to throw any attempt at communication under the bus. I'd be interested in hearing about viable solutions.

Can anyone answer, HOW MUCH DOES IT COST ILLINOIS TO SUPPORT ONE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT!! Anyone??

Palman/Steinar: There was a famous study done ten or so years ago. I will have to dog into my archives and will attempt to find out for you. As I said, however, if you go to www.cis.com (Center for Immigration Studies) you should be able to find less stale data, perhaps encapsulated in a concise article. I can't do anymore this morning but will revert to you ASAP. Feel free to contact me also at DBell540@AOL.com.

JOSE, you said it yourself! "Americans would take those jobs if the pay was higher" LOL at you! I got news for you, the wages for those jobs are NOT going to get any higher!

GINA: Well at least you have finally revealed your true colors (Viva Mexico and "Aztlan" to you this morning my dear Reconquistadore)..anyway, by definition "your people" are criminals.......by definition....DUH. As for the population of the U.S. penal system, i.e., more serious crimes, i.e., other than "simply" invading the U.S. and disrespecting our sovereignty with territorial ambitions (rape, murder,armed robbery) by a wide disproportionately wide margin the population is indeed ILLEGAL, mostly from Mexico....I think it is fully one third if not mistaken.......again, DUH.

Steinar....gotta love those sob sister anecdotes used to justify endless mass/illegal immigration.....the MSM uses such anecdotal reporting all the time as facts would just confuse the issue, for, as we all know, we "are a nation of immigrants......" (boohoo, blah, blah, blah, blather, blather, blather)

Illegals are NOT all from Mexico. You guys are very intelligent when it comes to certain aspects of what you say. But the truth of the matter is that there are PLENTY of NON Mexican ILLEGALS. But, it is easier to pick on the brown skinned, black haired folks. You are free to say and post what you want, the truth is that there WILL be a reform whether you approve of it or not! ;) Good day to you too.

Steinar: Now Gina plays the race card to make us all feel so guilty over our obvious "racism" because we advocate some semblance of border control and a reasonable, numerically sustainable immigration policy (BTW Gina it is a FACT most illegals BY A WIDE MARGIN are from MEXICO). It is amazing how those who play the race card on one side of the immigration debate then turn around and tell us why our own kids (saddled with war debts to finance college degrees languishing in their parent's basements with few to no job prospects) need to compete with an endless supply of foreigners (from China, India, etc.) because they are so much better than American kids (i.e., Obama and company want to hand out green cards to every foreigner graduating with a sheep skin from an American university). Of course the tech companies say, as usual, they can't find enough willing/competent Americans to fill the jobs, even as Biden's economic adviser Jared Bernstein called the H1-b visa program a blatant cheap labor scam, as has the OMB. But that doesn't seem to sway King Obama whose own Jobs Czar, GE's CEO, Jeff Immelt, also wants (or wanted as Obama I heard retired the Jobs Council) the endless supply of cheap immigrant labor expanded to add to our woefully inadequate labor supply with unemployment rates at the highest and most sustained in this the "new normal" Great Recession since the last Great Depression when the U.S., in a much wiser guise, slammed shut the golden gates!!!!!!

I as a: Republican, tax paying citizen, “pro legal immigration” advocate, granddaughter of two immigrant non-English speaking grandparents (from 1920) and a current mother-in-law of a recent immigrant now full-fledged Citizen daughter-in-law would like to put in my two cents.
There are four other issues that are not being put on the table with the Democrats version of Comprehensive Immigration Reform. With all my research I have done in the last two decades these three issues, Visa Overstays, Birthright Citizenship and Chain Migration along with the state of the economy all play a vital role in true fair reform for all of us on both sides of the isle. Of all the illegal alien population Visa Overstays account for 40% of illegal immigrants who are from all around the world. About 5.5 million children in this country have at least one parent who is an illegal immigrant, according to an estimate by the Pew Hispanic Center. Among them, about one million children were brought here illegally by their parents, while about 4.5 million are United States citizens because they were born here. In all, about 9.5 million people live in “mixed status” families that include American citizen children and unauthorized immigrants, Jeffrey S. Passel, senior demographer at the Pew center. Aug 15, 2012. (cont)

Birthright Citizenship is one of many illegal immigrant magnets therefore it also must be addressed and not swept under the carpet. Every year, 300,000 to 400,000 children are born to illegal immigrants in the United States. Despite the foreign citizenship and illegal status of the parent, the executive branch of the U.S. government automatically recognizes these children as U.S. citizens upon birth. Birthright Citizenship in the United States: A Global Comparison www.cis.org (cont)

Chain Migration: A child born to illegal aliens in the United States can initiate a chain of immigration when he reaches the age of 18 and “can sponsor an overseas spouse and unmarried children of his own. When he turns 21, he can also sponsor his parents and any brothers and sisters. Family-sponsored immigration accounts for most of the nation’s growth in immigration levels. Of the 1,130,818 immigrants who were granted legal permanent residency in 2009, a total of 747,413 (or, 66.1 percent) were family-sponsored immigrants. A change to U.S. immigration laws in the late 1950s — one that allowed for the admission of extended family members outside the nuclear family — resulted in the average annual flow increasing from 250,000 then, to over 1 million today. This number continues to rise every year because of the ever-expanding migration chains that operate independently of any economic downturns or labor needs. Although automatic and universal birthright citizenship is not the only contributor to chain migration, ending it would prevent some of this explosive growth.” NumbersUSA. (cont)

The United States is one of only two high average income countries (the other country is Canada which offers it in limited circumstances) that still gives birthright citizenship for children born where both parents are unauthorized immigrants, tourists, visitors or other types of temporary residents (diplomats excepted). Center for Immigration Studies. (cont)

The following are some food for thought on the economy. Nearly 44 percent of American households don’t have enough savings to cover their basic expenses for three months in the event of a financial emergency like losing a job or paying for unexpected medical care. These are households and individuals that are living paycheck-to-paycheck. And without savings, you’re one misstep away from financial disaster,” Justin King, federal policy liaison for the New America Foundation, told The Huffington Post
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/30/financial-emergency-report_n_2576326.html?ref=topbar
Financial expert Carmen Wong Ulrich exclaimed 5 million long term unemployed … jobs don’t exist, still only one job for three people (she citied that source from the Economic Policy Institute). From the Melissa Harris Perry show.
1 in 3 Illinoisans lives in or near poverty level. A staggering one out of three Illinoisans today lives in or near poverty — the peak of a continued climb over three decades, a new study finds. http://www.myfoxchicago.com/story/20601722/1-in-3-illinoisans-lives-in-or-near-poverty-level-report?obref=obinsite

"Undocumented Immigrants"---what is this---another term for illegal aliens?...Can we please knock off the stupid PC terminology here---crime is crime...and if you enter the US illegally then you are in fact a criminal---whats so hard to understand about this?

Under Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code, "Improper Entry by Alien," any citizen of any country other than the United States who:enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time has committed a federal crime---PERIOD!---end of story

""Undocumented Immigrants"---what is this---another term for illegal aliens?."

Congressman John Conyers is trying to establish rules of engagement for the immigration discussions coming up... he is asking that nobody refer to them as 'illegal', as no human being, blah, blah, blah, can be illegal. He is also asking that everyone abstains from using the term 'alien'.

This is how the Democrats want to operate.

They will get the legacy media on their side and will try and shame those who use the correct terminology by implying that they are racists, etc.. Conyers himself is an idiot, but the Democrats are masters of wordsmithing and propaganda.

Also whoever wrote this poll is very biased.

Steinar et.al:

Did it ever occur to you immigrant junkies that your posts are only read by a diminshing few? Perhaps it would be better for you, Steinar to put up your own blog as you suggested to continue this.

Hear ye, hear ye! Measure your views against this new national Gallup Poll in the summary I copied below. For full results look up Gallup.com for Feb. 5th.

February 5, 2013
Americans Widely Support Immigration Reform Proposals
Greatest support for employers' verifying new hires' legal status
by Frank Newport
PRINCETON, NJ -- At least two-thirds of Americans favor each of five specific measures designed to address immigration issues -- ranging from 68% who would vote for increased government spending on security measures and enforcement at U.S. borders, to 85% who would vote for a requirement that employers verify the immigration status of all new hires. More than seven in 10 would vote for a pathway to citizenship for undocumented immigrants now living in this country.

Gallup.com Feb. 5th

This country is all about immigrants. Three of my 4 grandparents were from other countries.And they came here "legally". Just because 11 million people got here illegally and are here "now", doesn't mean they should be "automatic citizens".

Steinar: I look forward to working with you and promise to contact you. FYI, I have been in the trenches on this issue for close to thirty years, forty or more if you count my activism for population/environment issues (before immigration became the driving factor in U.S. population growth). I just came home, tired and hungry from work, so must be brief, but do feel free to contact me as well: DBell540@AOL.com. I might also add I have done years of unpaid volunteer work for NumbersUSA as well as travelling to Washington at my own expense in 1998 to walk the halls of Congress leading a "calling party" as part of the FAIR sponsored IRAW '98 (Immigration Reform Awareness Week), I have many friends and personal acquaintences as well in the "movement" like Joe Daleiden (demographer, economist, published author, philosopher), Dick Lamm (former Colorado Governor and U.S. presidential candidate, and helped found the Midwest Cloalition to Reform (now "Reduce") Immigration. So I guess I am indeed a dyed-in-the-wool immigration "junkie" as Mr. Schwartz puts it....and I might add for good reason, as I agree 110% with your assessment that this issue, is, without doubt, the single most important one faceing this nation, the outcome of which will decide indeed whether or not this nation even survives as a viable nation state, at least as we know it. Quite frankly, the majority of people, including most politicians, are just too stupid to comprehend the gravity of this building disaster.

Unfortunately whether one agrees with the situation or not the Comprehensive Immigration Reform that looms on the horizon will be debated in the 113th Congress soon. The educated public, all those who have had the inclination, the time and passion (for whatever personal reasons) to have kept attuned to what was going on through the years with immigration, (i. e. preferential treatment for one demographic, namely illegal aliens from “all around the world,” chain migration, birthright citizenship, past immigration laws to restrict what they declared in Congress as the wrong kind of immigrant, “undesirables” in 1917, 1921, 1924, 1952 etc.) had been keenly aware of what was beginning to happen with our immigration system (many of our previous elected officials along with many current elected officials had an agenda counter to public opinion) an open borders agenda was beginning to surface. (cont)

As we all stood by powerless: without lobbyists to back our point of view, no grass roots movement to change the demographics (Aztlan, Define American, Open Borders Advocates, etc.) no business interests to advocate for us (they captured a new mass market press two Spanish) all the while many of our elected officials and open border advocates abided their time by kicking this hot button issue down the road for decades. All those elected officials had acted as if they turned a blind eye to illegal immigration for decades for one reason, “open borders.” It does not take a rocket scientist to figure that out. (cont)

Having said that, we now know why we have arrived at this stage of the immigration debate. If you could find the time to read and investigate our immigration history from the last 100 plus years like I have, it all adds up. This is a mere numbers game, more illegal immigration annually “from all around the world” equals a more politically empowered voting base. Thus, more pressure from identity politics lobbyists, illegal immigration advocates, big businesses who stand to gain immensely from an unlimited cheap labor pool for decades etc even if laws were placed on the books to deter such behavior. Mix in elected officials who for whatever reasons do not enforce the laws on the books (as history shows that is what happened) and you come up with the dilemma we have arrived at here today: more people for whom this issue is in their backyard. (cont)

If more people over a period of decades had the issue in their backyard the more you could sway public opinion in the direction of open borders. That is what has transpired over decades, especially in regards to that kind of immigration (by the inaction of not enforcing laws already on the books) that enabled those who could get in first ( illegal border crossers and visa overstays) to establish themselves in our communities (while blending in). All the illegal aliens have had to do is protest, protest and protest the loudest for decades and wait around for the next amnesty to come (now in the 21st century proclaimed as a path way to citizenship). (cont)

The other side gained unity for their agenda from many political factions set to gain from their endeavors: visa overstays, open border advocates, religious groups for humanitarian reasons, illegal immigrant advocates, ethnic lobbyists, big business interests for a never ending supply of cheap labor etc. They knew it would all come down to this, yesterday 3 million today 11 m plus tomorrow? One interesting fact I uncovered folks, there is written evidence (from a few historical sources) that our government knew there were a million illegal aliens over 90 years ago and “most did not arrive here through Castle Garden, Ellis Island or Canada,” which only proves the Border Control issue is not something new. (cont)

The fact of the matter is our elected officials control and have always controlled who is the right kind of immigrant they want in our country and they knew long ago the only way to achieve that was through the route of demographic manipulation based on our immigration laws. I know because I have researched and I have read: over a hundred books, hundreds of immigration articles and many scientific journals dating back a hundred years for the last ten years. Not to mention I spent many hours discussing it all with my politician science major offspring and others like minded. Point in case: the open border agenda advocates have literally won their argument (a path to citizenship a.k.a. amnesty) by changing the demographics through immigration laws and that is not an assumption that is a historical fact!
I’m sending my two cents on this very complicated subject matter to all my elected officials and I suggest anyone who agrees with me on this hot button socio-economic, environmental and political issue get to a computer, write down their thoughts and do likewise.

Eliminate ALL the freebies. NO health, NO welfare, NO education, NO anchors. NO NO NO... They want a Job? Pay them to help build a secure border. When its done, say thank you and escort them across. Once they see there is no benefit to be here, they will eventually stop trying.

Attitudes about immigration policy priorities: Among U.S. adults, 28% say the priority for dealing with illegal immigration should be given to tighter restrictions on illegal immigration while 27% say creating a path to citizenship should be the priority. A plurality (42%) says both tactics should be given equal priority.

“Latinos” are more likely than the general public (42% versus 27%) to say the priority should be a path to citizenship for immigrants who are in the U.S. illegally. (The Latino stat pertains to my point I stressed earlier in my last post because it could be in their backyard, ethnic solidarity, or perhaps both?) Just 10% of Latinos say priority should be given to better border security and enforcement. Latinos (46%) and the general public (42%) are about equally likely to say priority should be given to enforcement and legalization (Lopez, Gonzalez-Barrera and Motel, 2011).
http://www.pewhispanic.org/2013/01/29/a-nation-of-immigrants/